By Thursday before class, you must post once on the blog. In your response, you will be assessed by the same qualities of discussion that we generated in class (evidence, uptake, etc.). You must also post another time by Friday before class in response to the same question. No response should exceed 100 words.
Wednesday, October 14, 2009
Post #2 -- Group 4
Using evidence from both texts, answer the following questions:
To what extent is the monster/hero responsible for his exile? How do his values contribute to his exile?
I feel that both the monster or hero that is being exiled and the society which he is being exiled from both have a responsibility for the exile. However the society has the bigger fault. Whether or not he felt lonely later on, Grendel did (at least partially) choose to be exiled. At the same time, it is the society that exiled him. Grendel himself says that "The world resists me..." (p. 28) and this is also shown clearly when he tries to ask for forgiveness and join the dominant group at the mead hall. As for his values, his values seemed to go more strongly against that of the dominant society. I think that his exile is partially the reason that his values differ from the group's; however for as long as his values differ he will never join the group. never ending cycle.
I agree with Rashma in that it is both the monster/hero's and the society's fault. Without one, no one would have been exiled. But I would say that it is the society's fault on the most part, especially in Beowulf. Beowulf says himself, "It is always better to avenge dear ones" (97). The fact that Beowulf and the anglo-saxon society values revenge and fighting for glory puts them at fault for the exile of Grendel, even though Grendel started it.
I agree with you in the idea that it is mainly society's fault that one becomes exiled and lonely. Society makes no attempt at all to accept Grendel, isolating him from his very first interaction with the human race. "The king snatched an ax from the main beside him and, without any warning, he hurled it at me" (27). This was when Grendel was stuck in the tree. The king wasn't reacting to anything Grendel did, he just was openly hostile with Grendel from the beginning. Society will follow its leader in the king, so therefore society will be openly hostile to Grendel because of the king's actions. Grendel is responsible in no way, it is only his appearance which causes this adverse reaction from the humans.
Dan, are you suggesting that it is not society's fault but more specifically the King's? Because followers tend to lead those in power, when Grendel did try to rejoin society, they banded together and kept him as an outsider. "It bothers me to have to burden anyone with all the grief Grendel has caused" (33 Beowulf) shows King Hrothgar's disapproval of Grendel as a member of society, influencing others to exile him. Grendel says, “Hrothgar was an old, old man, that I settled my soul on destroying him” (30 Grendel), showing great hatred suggesting the King played a significant role.
I agree with Dan that society in general did not except Grendel because of his appearance. Also to add on to that Grendel tried to follow society but was shunned. When Grendel engaged in a conversation with the dragon, Grendel tells the dragon his feeling he said “ I’m trying to follow. I do my best”(67) this shows us that Grendel really wanted to follow dominate society but however like Dan said the king did not except him.
I would actually like to disagree with that point. Because although he is shunned from society because of his appearences, I feel like they are more horrified by his actions than anything. And as one person begins to shun him, they all do, it's like mob mentality. "But satisfy the greed of the majority and the rst will do you no harm" (118). In Grendel, when Hrothgar is in a conversation, it is demonstrated the power of mob mentality. As they all push him towards being in outcast, instead of trying to prove them wrong, he accepts it and works with it. Not being able to be excepted, he instead demonstrates violence to show his need for power or control to compensate. He displays this in the passage with the mountain goat who rufuses to do what he says. It is his own fault for accepting himself as an outcast and becoming a monster.
Well, Hira, one could argue that Grendel doesn't necessarily accept himself as an outcast but instead the humans outcast him because they need an outcast to provide meaning in their lives. The dragon tells Grendel, "If you withdraw, you'll instantly be replaced" (73 Grendel). If Grendel wasn't around, the humans would find another monster to take his place, and they would come together against it. The humans need him to be outcasted to find purpose in life.
If we put both Hira and Maggie's ideas together could say that Grendel was shunned by society because of their need of an enemy, but once Grendel saw this as a "job" instead of a punishment he did accept it. After Grendel speaks to the dragon he says, "I killed stragglers now and then- with a certain grim pleasure very different from that which I got from cracking a cow's skull" (76). Grendel seems to enjoy this role. Beowulf also shows us that once Grendel is gone, society moves on to new enemies such as Grendel’s mother and the dragon.
I agree with Mary Carol that society was simply creating itself an enemy in Grendel, simply because they needed an enemy. This can also be seen by when the Dragon says, "You inspire them, my boy!" (72). This is showing how, no matter what Grendel does to deserve or not deserve the treatment he gets, he will still be shunned by society and be a scapegoat for society's problems. Whenever anything is done negatively in their society, it will be blamed on Grendel, and will further bother Grendel, which is what causes his attacks, from which they attack back on. 'Tis a vicious cycle.
I agree with the fact that society needs Grendel as a enemy, (to add on to that) I believe that society need him in order to enhance their ability to think. This can shown on page 26 when Grendel is on top of the tree hurt “The spirits angry, It always has been. That’s why it’s killing the tree.” This shows us that Grendel inspires knowledge to the Anglo-Saxon society and without him the Anglo-Saxon society would not be inspired to search for knowledge. Also it is shown in Beowulf that Anglo-Saxon society gains knowledge after defeating the monster especially Beowulf himself, after killing Grendel and his mother king Hrothgar states that “ I have never heard so young a man make truer observations” when killing the monsters Beowulf.
I see what you guys mean, that society needs him to be an outcast and that is the main reason to his contribution to being a monster. However, the question is asking about how the individual himself/herself is responsible for his/her own exile through their values. Grendel values controlling through fear. He even gives himself a name with a position of authority, "'It is I,' I say. 'The Destroyer'" (130). The author even capitalizes his title to demonstrate the authority it yields. The name itself induces fear. The people's reaction towards his destruction is evident in the text Beowulf as well. "All were endangered;young and old were hunted down by that dark death-shadow who lurked and swooped in the long nights on the misty moors; nobody knows where these reavers from hell roam on their errands" (13). The people were so scared of his wrath; it was unknown when he would attack. I feel as though this value of power and control over others using fear is more of a reason for his social annihilation.
I feel that both the monster or hero that is being exiled and the society which he is being exiled from both have a responsibility for the exile. However the society has the bigger fault. Whether or not he felt lonely later on, Grendel did (at least partially) choose to be exiled. At the same time, it is the society that exiled him. Grendel himself says that "The world resists me..." (p. 28) and this is also shown clearly when he tries to ask for forgiveness and join the dominant group at the mead hall. As for his values, his values seemed to go more strongly against that of the dominant society. I think that his exile is partially the reason that his values differ from the group's; however for as long as his values differ he will never join the group. never ending cycle.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rashma in that it is both the monster/hero's and the society's fault. Without one, no one would have been exiled. But I would say that it is the society's fault on the most part, especially in Beowulf. Beowulf says himself, "It is always better to avenge dear ones" (97). The fact that Beowulf and the anglo-saxon society values revenge and fighting for glory puts them at fault for the exile of Grendel, even though Grendel started it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you in the idea that it is mainly society's fault that one becomes exiled and lonely. Society makes no attempt at all to accept Grendel, isolating him from his very first interaction with the human race. "The king snatched an ax from the main beside him and, without any warning, he hurled it at me" (27). This was when Grendel was stuck in the tree. The king wasn't reacting to anything Grendel did, he just was openly hostile with Grendel from the beginning. Society will follow its leader in the king, so therefore society will be openly hostile to Grendel because of the king's actions. Grendel is responsible in no way, it is only his appearance which causes this adverse reaction from the humans.
ReplyDeleteDan, are you suggesting that it is not society's fault but more specifically the King's? Because followers tend to lead those in power, when Grendel did try to rejoin society, they banded together and kept him as an outsider. "It bothers me to have to burden anyone with all the grief Grendel has caused" (33 Beowulf) shows King Hrothgar's disapproval of Grendel as a member of society, influencing others to exile him. Grendel says, “Hrothgar was an old, old man, that I settled my soul on destroying him” (30 Grendel), showing great hatred suggesting the King played a significant role.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Dan that society in general did not except Grendel because of his appearance. Also to add on to that Grendel tried to follow society but was shunned. When Grendel engaged in a conversation with the dragon, Grendel tells the dragon his feeling he said “ I’m trying to follow. I do my best”(67) this shows us that Grendel really wanted to follow dominate society but however like Dan said the king did not except him.
ReplyDeleteI would actually like to disagree with that point. Because although he is shunned from society because of his appearences, I feel like they are more horrified by his actions than anything. And as one person begins to shun him, they all do, it's like mob mentality. "But satisfy the greed of the majority and the rst will do you no harm" (118). In Grendel, when Hrothgar is in a conversation, it is demonstrated the power of mob mentality. As they all push him towards being in outcast, instead of trying to prove them wrong, he accepts it and works with it. Not being able to be excepted, he instead demonstrates violence to show his need for power or control to compensate. He displays this in the passage with the mountain goat who rufuses to do what he says. It is his own fault for accepting himself as an outcast and becoming a monster.
ReplyDeleteWell, Hira, one could argue that Grendel doesn't necessarily accept himself as an outcast but instead the humans outcast him because they need an outcast to provide meaning in their lives. The dragon tells Grendel, "If you withdraw, you'll instantly be replaced" (73 Grendel). If Grendel wasn't around, the humans would find another monster to take his place, and they would come together against it. The humans need him to be outcasted to find purpose in life.
ReplyDeleteIf we put both Hira and Maggie's ideas together could say that Grendel was shunned by society because of their need of an enemy, but once Grendel saw this as a "job" instead of a punishment he did accept it. After Grendel speaks to the dragon he says, "I killed stragglers now and then- with a certain grim pleasure very different from that which I got from cracking a cow's skull" (76). Grendel seems to enjoy this role. Beowulf also shows us that once Grendel is gone, society moves on to new enemies such as Grendel’s mother and the dragon.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mary Carol that society was simply creating itself an enemy in Grendel, simply because they needed an enemy. This can also be seen by when the Dragon says, "You inspire them, my boy!" (72). This is showing how, no matter what Grendel does to deserve or not deserve the treatment he gets, he will still be shunned by society and be a scapegoat for society's problems. Whenever anything is done negatively in their society, it will be blamed on Grendel, and will further bother Grendel, which is what causes his attacks, from which they attack back on. 'Tis a vicious cycle.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that society needs Grendel as a enemy, (to add on to that) I believe that society need him in order to enhance their ability to think. This can shown on page 26 when Grendel is on top of the tree hurt “The spirits angry, It always has been. That’s why it’s killing the tree.” This shows us that Grendel inspires knowledge to the Anglo-Saxon society and without him the Anglo-Saxon society would not be inspired to search for knowledge. Also it is shown in Beowulf that Anglo-Saxon society gains knowledge after defeating the monster especially Beowulf himself, after killing Grendel and his mother king Hrothgar states that “ I have never heard so young a man make truer observations” when killing the monsters Beowulf.
ReplyDeleteI see what you guys mean, that society needs him to be an outcast and that is the main reason to his contribution to being a monster. However, the question is asking about how the individual himself/herself is responsible for his/her own exile through their values. Grendel values controlling through fear. He even gives himself a name with a position of authority, "'It is I,' I say. 'The Destroyer'" (130). The author even capitalizes his title to demonstrate the authority it yields. The name itself induces fear. The people's reaction towards his destruction is evident in the text Beowulf as well. "All were endangered;young and old were hunted down by that dark death-shadow who lurked and swooped in the long nights on the misty moors; nobody knows where these reavers from hell roam on their errands" (13). The people were so scared of his wrath; it was unknown when he would attack. I feel as though this value of power and control over others using fear is more of a reason for his social annihilation.
ReplyDelete