By Thursday before class, you must post once on the blog. In your response, you will be assessed by the same qualities of discussion that we generated in class (evidence, uptake, etc.). You must also post another time by Friday before class in response to the same question. No response should exceed 100 words.
Wednesday, October 14, 2009
Post #2 -- Group 1
Using evidence from both texts, answer the following questions:
To what extent is the monster/hero responsible for his exile? How do his values contribute to his exile?
I thought Grendel went into exile because he had monster-like values that were the opposite of the values of the Anglo-Saxons and this made him hated by the society, Grendel even thought "The world resists ... world" (28 of Grendel). While values like bravery brought Beowolf into exile from his homeland, Beowlf even says "Stoutness of ... to Hrothgar" (25 of Beowolf). Overall, Beowolf was exiled because he was encouraged by the Anglo-Saxon values while Grendel was exiled because he was out to destroy them.
Hasan, how would you define “monster-like” values? It’s hard to pinpoint exactly what Grendel’s values were, let alone, if he even had any values. When Grendel said, “The world is all pointless accident…I exist, nothing else” (28), it seemed as though Grendel valued nothing. He was constantly saying that there was no point in life. When Grendel said, “The world resists me…” (28), it made me feel bad for him, making me think that maybe it was society’s fault for his exile since they were not accepting of him. But one has to remember that it was Grendel himself who decided to commit violent murders. Society wasn’t egging him on to kill people. Therefore, it was ultimately Grendel’s fault for his exile.
I agree, Alison, that a lot of Grendel's actions have been the cause of his own exile, but I believe more that his thoughts of being resisted themselves are the more guilty perpetrator because if Grendel believes himself to be separated from the rest of the world, he will be. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. As he says after speaking of men, "So it goes with me day by day and age by age, I tell myself. Locked in the deadly progression of moon and stars."(8) In saying "So I tell myself" he is practically illustrating my point-so he tells himself he is "locked in the deadly progression of moon and stars", so it will be.
I don't think that Grendel is entirely responsible for his exile. When he spoke with the dragon,the dragon said, "Why not frighten them"(61 Gardner). This was in response to a when Grendel wanted to stop scaring the humans. The dragon made Grendel see the world as a bleak and meaningless place that needs to encourage fear in those not like him, so the dragon causes a change in Grendel's ideals and makes him continue to kill.
I don't think it so much that the person be a hero or monster chooses to be exiled, I think that mostly they just follow society or don't. When listening to the Shaper he says,"And I, Grendel.... God cursed"(51 Gardner). Gad cursed Grendel by making him be different, so he is outcast and unable to follow society. While Beowulf sort of personifies society's acceptance as a person. In Beowulf the story teller says at the start, "Behavior that's admired is the path to power"(5 line 24-25). This was in description of Beowulf. So it's saying his actions are admired everywhere. So he follows society's "path to power" so he isn't exiled but instead he is elevated on a sort of pedestal.
I understand what you are saying about Beowulf being admired and therefore raised on a pedestal of sorts, but do you think that this pedestal could also be a form of exile? If Beowulf has now become marveled over by the people is he not of a separate class than them, therefore making him exiled in a sense? As it is said in Beowulf after he defeats Grendel, "Nowhere, they said, north or south between the two seas or under the tall sky on the broad earth was there anyone better to raise a shield or to rule a kingdom." (57) To some extent, Beowulf, by being this grand hero, is the cause of his own exile. But it is more the public opinion that no one could be better which causes a separation between Beowulf and society. So, if I were to relate this to my first point, I think it can be argued that public opinion as well as personal belief can lead to exile.
yeh geena i kind of agree to what u are saying, of beowulf being a grand hero, which makes him a seperate class of them. have u guys ever realized that whenever beowulf is fighting, he always is the one who says that i'm going to fight alone. for example when he is fighting the dragon this is what
keep reading sry: he says to his men, "this fight is not yours...away"(171-L-2532-2537). in this quote, don't u guys think that even in a battle beowulf wants to exile himsel, so that he himself still be the grand hero.
and jackson i agree to wat u are saying. and it was grendels desicion not to follow society, but destroy it. after grendel realized his destiny this is wat he said, "i had become something, as if born again...wrecker of kings"(80). in this quote it was grendels descision not to follow society, but destroy it.
i agree with Nikk that Beowulf tries to fight heroically because he tried to fight Grendel without a sword, he even said "I have heard ... friend" (31).
I disagree with Nikk because it wasn't Grendel's fault that he was exiled. Grendel said "I'd meant ... always" (79). Grendel explains that the society attacked him "as always" and they started it and they thought he was a monster. Therefore, they were responsible for his exile.
Everyone has made really good points. I first believed that Grendel was fully responsible for his exile, but I’m now not so sure. Nikki, I agree with you that it was Grendel’s decision to not follow the society’s values. He accepted the role of a monster and gave himself the title of “Ruiner of Meadhalls, Wrecker of Kings” (Gardner 80). However, he didn’t accept this title whole-heartedly. The next line reads, “But also, as never before, I was alone” (80). He had an epiphany that he had to accept it, whether he liked it or not. “Grendel was the name of this grim demon…the Creator had outlawed and condemned as outcasts” (Beowulf 9). Grendel was born into the role of a monster, and therefore was born into exile.
I thought Grendel went into exile because he had monster-like values that were the opposite of the values of the Anglo-Saxons and this made him hated by the society, Grendel even thought "The world resists ... world" (28 of Grendel). While values like bravery brought Beowolf into exile from his homeland, Beowlf even says "Stoutness of ... to Hrothgar" (25 of Beowolf). Overall, Beowolf was exiled because he was encouraged by the Anglo-Saxon values while Grendel was exiled because he was out to destroy them.
ReplyDeleteHasan, how would you define “monster-like” values? It’s hard to pinpoint exactly what Grendel’s values were, let alone, if he even had any values. When Grendel said, “The world is all pointless accident…I exist, nothing else” (28), it seemed as though Grendel valued nothing. He was constantly saying that there was no point in life. When Grendel said, “The world resists me…” (28), it made me feel bad for him, making me think that maybe it was society’s fault for his exile since they were not accepting of him. But one has to remember that it was Grendel himself who decided to commit violent murders. Society wasn’t egging him on to kill people. Therefore, it was ultimately Grendel’s fault for his exile.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Alison, that a lot of Grendel's actions have been the cause of his own exile, but I believe more that his thoughts of being resisted themselves are the more guilty perpetrator because if Grendel believes himself to be separated from the rest of the world, he will be. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. As he says after speaking of men, "So it goes with me day by day and age by age, I tell myself. Locked in the deadly progression of moon and stars."(8) In saying "So I tell myself" he is practically illustrating my point-so he tells himself he is "locked in the deadly progression of moon and stars", so it will be.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Grendel is entirely responsible for his exile. When he spoke with the dragon,the dragon said, "Why not frighten them"(61 Gardner). This was in response to a when Grendel wanted to stop scaring the humans. The dragon made Grendel see the world as a bleak and meaningless place that needs to encourage fear in those not like him, so the dragon causes a change in Grendel's ideals and makes him continue to kill.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it so much that the person be a hero or monster chooses to be exiled, I think that mostly they just follow society or don't. When listening to the Shaper he says,"And I, Grendel.... God cursed"(51 Gardner). Gad cursed Grendel by making him be different, so he is outcast and unable to follow society. While Beowulf sort of personifies society's acceptance as a person. In Beowulf the story teller says at the start, "Behavior that's admired is the path to power"(5 line 24-25). This was in description of Beowulf. So it's saying his actions are admired everywhere. So he follows society's "path to power" so he isn't exiled but instead he is elevated on a sort of pedestal.
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying about Beowulf being admired and therefore raised on a pedestal of sorts, but do you think that this pedestal could also be a form of exile? If Beowulf has now become marveled over by the people is he not of a separate class than them, therefore making him exiled in a sense? As it is said in Beowulf after he defeats Grendel, "Nowhere, they said, north or south between the two seas or under the tall sky on the broad earth was there anyone better to raise a shield or to rule a kingdom." (57) To some extent, Beowulf, by being this grand hero, is the cause of his own exile. But it is more the public opinion that no one could be better which causes a separation between Beowulf and society. So, if I were to relate this to my first point, I think it can be argued that public opinion as well as personal belief can lead to exile.
ReplyDeleteyeh geena i kind of agree to what u are saying, of beowulf being a grand hero, which makes him a seperate class of them. have u guys ever realized that whenever beowulf is fighting, he always is the one who says that i'm going to fight alone. for example when he is fighting the dragon this is what
ReplyDeletekeep reading sry: he says to his men, "this fight is not yours...away"(171-L-2532-2537). in this quote, don't u guys think that even in a battle beowulf wants to exile himsel, so that he himself still be the grand hero.
ReplyDeleteand jackson i agree to wat u are saying. and it was grendels desicion not to follow society, but destroy it. after grendel realized his destiny this is wat he said, "i had become something, as if born again...wrecker of kings"(80). in this quote it was grendels descision not to follow society, but destroy it.
i agree with Nikk that Beowulf tries to fight heroically because he tried to fight Grendel without a sword, he even said "I have heard ... friend" (31).
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Nikk because it wasn't Grendel's fault that he was exiled. Grendel said "I'd meant ... always" (79). Grendel explains that the society attacked him "as always" and they started it and they thought he was a monster. Therefore, they were responsible for his exile.
Everyone has made really good points. I first believed that Grendel was fully responsible for his exile, but I’m now not so sure. Nikki, I agree with you that it was Grendel’s decision to not follow the society’s values. He accepted the role of a monster and gave himself the title of “Ruiner of Meadhalls, Wrecker of Kings” (Gardner 80). However, he didn’t accept this title whole-heartedly. The next line reads, “But also, as never before, I was alone” (80). He had an epiphany that he had to accept it, whether he liked it or not. “Grendel was the name of this grim demon…the Creator had outlawed and condemned as outcasts” (Beowulf 9). Grendel was born into the role of a monster, and therefore was born into exile.
ReplyDelete